From rationaldl@... Tue Sep 06 12:48:21 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: rationaldl@... X-Apparently-To: 12-step-free@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 37040 invoked from network); 6 Sep 2005 19:48:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m35.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Sep 2005 19:48:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web31106.mail.mud.yahoo.com) (68.142.200.39) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Sep 2005 19:48:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 72069 invoked by uid 60001); 6 Sep 2005 19:48:20 -0000 Message-ID: <20050906194819.72067.qmail@...> Received: from [162.84.178.99] by web31106.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 06 Sep 2005 12:48:19 PDT Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 12:48:19 -0700 (PDT) To: 12-step-free@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 68.142.200.39 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: donald lee Subject: Re: [12-step-free] Re: Orange Papers back online! X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=212857078; y=mlUd_RxHXRWs2PRk6-Ngaj7Vo3bc_xrS_n2fvIQn6h1LXpurHA X-Yahoo-Profile: rationaldl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have made up my mind about you. You sound educated but still an asshole. I support prisons, and still am aware of the dire need for reform, and teatment for its inhabitants. One day AA and nA can go back to being just what they were meant to be. A program of attraction. Is this a simple neough analogy for yo to understand. Sober is the end result. The operative word being Clean and sober, even it is alone, or with a voodoo prest. If something is broke you fix it a little, or develope something different. Does this let you know where I stand? Sincerely rationaldl ed batis wrote: --- In 12-step-free@yahoogroups.com, donald lee wrote: > My mind is made up I usually don't knock other religions, where there is somehting going on. Somehting at all. We all see the connections to church and state. To paraphrase someone I spoke to alot in the days after I left AA and NA. Let it go back to being the self help healing program it was meant to be. I won't be snooping in their meetings either and I will still spread the word until they do, keep their and their friends hands off every where. It is a large political machine, well backed and financed. > rationaldl > > ARID Site wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On 5 Sep 2005 20:40:02 -0000 12-step-free@yahoogroups.com writes: > > Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 11:24:00 -0700 (PDT) > > From: donald lee > > Subject: Re: Re: Orange Papers back online! > > > > I do believe that the stats are similar for all methods of > > recovery. > > That depends on what you define as "recovery". > > According to Hester & Miller's "Handbook of Alcoholism Treatment > Approaches: Third Edition" the most common modalities used within the > addiction treatment industry (typically 12-Step indoctrination and > propaganda) are expensive and have an extremely low rate of positive > outcome. > > Positive outcome would be self-effacy and autonomy: Personal > independence AWAY from that problem compulsive behavior. Naturally, > 12-Step fosters increased dependency by design, which explains the > extremely low success rates (not to mention increased mental illness > and mortality rates). > > If I were to define how I recovered it would be through what that > book defined as "Bibliotherapy": I relied on books to feed my head > and deprogram myself accordingly. Of H&M's list of ranked treatment > modalities (pp. 19) the technique I utilized was within the top ten: > It ranked 4.5 from a list of 50 modalities. The 12-Step modalities > were low-middling to dead last. > > > Even for those without any type of program. > > According to George Vaillant, a professor of psychiatry and A.A.'s > own non-alcoholic trustee as interviewed in the A.A. Grapevine (May > 2001), 60% simply quit drinking on their own without ANY program or > guidance whatsoever. > > Likewise, according to the Harvard Mental Health Newsletter (as cited > from The Orange Papers) 80% with a year of more of continuous > abstinence simply quit on their own. > > It appears that no program whatsoever is vastly superior to what's > considered "mainstream". And "whatever works" just ain't necessarily > so. > > > There is some truth and > > logic in the written words, throughout the 12 steps. > > Ok. I'll bite. What is the truth and logic within the 12-Steps? Is it > a method to quit drinking? > > C'mon, rationaldl! You're losing me here! > > > That's part of > > it What people haven't realized is that it becomes a total way of > > life. > > And that is what I am exposing: Its way of life is slavish devotion > to destructive social cultism, borne in fear and death. That's not > living free. > > > I have found that it is the areas around the 12 steps, > > hospitals shrinks aftercare who make the bucks, mess with you just > > as bad. etc > > I'm just soaking in the cognitive dissonance you present: You are for > the 12-Steps yet you know of its problems. You know it's a scam and > yet you see "truth" in it. That's a piss-poor impression to leave. > > > If people are hapy there let them stay, even if only > > three addicts a year are makimg it. > > And who gets to pay for that? I say they're free to stay as long as > they pay their own way and not on the public dole. > > But three addicts a year who are "making it"? Out of how many? A > hundred? A thousand? Ten thousand? That's an abysmal failure rate no > matter which way you spin the figures. It's better just to scrap the > entire system and have these deeply deluded fools pursue some honest > work or education for a change. > > We know what works and what doesn't because the research has been > done. The current fare within the Social Services System obviously > doesn't and is proven as a failure. If the system is immune to reform > it must be abolished. > > > But don't be stupid enough to > > tell anyone that it is the only way, and that you are all that in > > treatment. Don't be that obtuse as to where you think you may plot > > scheme or even begin to harass outsiders without dire consequenses. > > Make a meeting, go home and that's as good as it gets. Whe shit > > happens now. It can be traced to you. > > Unfortunately it appears that you support the same system by which > you were victimized. When you state in one sentence that all > treatment has similar outcomes and defend it by claiming that it > possesses some "truth" then, within your diatribe, complain about the > harassment I only can give you this as practical advice: > > Make up your damn mind already! > > Obviously 12-Step "trickment" is a public danger which causes more > problems than the addiction itself. But you come off as wanting it > around despite the proven ineffectiveness. My question is, why? > > I just wonder if you can make a firm decision regarding the sincerity > of your opposition against the cult. There's more to life than the > devolution of one's own life to merely conform with the victim > mentality found within the Buchmanite cultocracy. > > dr.bomb, Ph.D. AVRT(tm) \_____________________________ > Editor of The ARID Site: http://thearidsite.tripod.com > > PGP keys at http://thearidsite.tripod.com/ARIDPGPK.TXT > ** The Twelve Steps are a downward spiral staircase ** > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: PGP Personal Privacy 6.5.8 > > iQA/AwUBQxzZvLw9MOKEeRC8EQK0aACeJvA13PEzA+iUZ99RzLpndwnfe0kAoPXx > 3Qy80xfmtmuLtHfhOpNwobAI > =VAJR > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > SPONSORED LINKS > Addiction recovery program Recovery from addiction Addiction recovery center Christian addiction recovery Child support recovery State of iowa child support recovery unit > > --------------------------------- > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > Visit your group "12-step-free" on the web. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > 12-step-free-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > --------------------------------- > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] SPONSORED LINKS Addiction recovery program Recovery from addiction Addiction recovery center Christian addiction recovery Child support recovery State of iowa child support recovery unit --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "12-step-free" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: 12-step-free-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! 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