From: Ray Smith To: ARID Site Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 08:18:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Old Item Revisited (Clearing The Queue) Message-ID: <20060610151839.32488.qmail@web33507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from mx21.lax.untd.com (mx21.lax.untd.com [10.130.24.81]) by maildeliver05.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABCJX2YRA2U6GVJ for (sender ); Sat, 10 Jun 2006 08:18:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web33507.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web33507.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.206.156]) by mx21.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABCJX2YRANVSTFS for (sender ); Sat, 10 Jun 2006 08:18:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 32490 invoked by uid 60001); 10 Jun 2006 15:18:39 -0000 Received: from [205.188.117.68] by web33507.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 08:18:39 PDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1745315823-1149952719=:32059" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Status: Replied X-Juno-Att: 0 X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 68.142.206.156|web33507.mail.mud.yahoo.com|web33507.mail.mud.yahoo.com|raysny@yahoo.com X-MAIL-INFO: 20c848c148b54d89b591c55d916915e83918ddd8c5ddbc7c75d95c11f8a9c8a85561c9d8 Return-Path: X-ContentStamp: 2:3:2947770569 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=LWasf9PD8Gd+PC0fw1nAI+nr5aPLNXfWBiJ9+Fr9U7rm7ule3uKn6hjoPhK6fbpy34oKqV3b7/R580ImQTJ5x1247jFeg6J6qGYY7ipURM8AjMu67lcZr83i5KXHPxXDpEoHxtpbbccU0CEHJhyTCp42LvPJ9LXdwN3On0Bgb4I= ; In-Reply-To: <20060610.100404.3540.0.thearidsite@juno.com> X-UNTD-UBE: -1 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --0-1745315823-1149952719=:32059 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Totally out of context. You accused me of being "afraid of AA". We were discussing your feud with Don: (me)> I hadn't said anything before, hoping it would blow over if I > asked you two to quit. I'm not sure telling you this is fair to > Don, but I don't want the group getting sidelined. Some > (suspected) AA troll already commented that he was laughing his > ass off. I'm trying to keep 12CW the serious anti-AA group. (you) Oh, NOW you tell the truth! Never in public but here in private? Are you that shit scared of A.A.? Who cares what they think and if they laugh or not! Hell, the only reason why I'm pseudoanonymous is that I infiltrate Buchmanite groups and work within the pharmaceutical biz. Anyhow, it's over. I quit for no one can reason with a cultist. He's well on his way...to where I have no idea. I do have to admit that you got me wondering which side is worse: The Buchmanites themselves or those apologists who believe in "whatever works", including cult indoctrination, and that "we" should all get along in such a false utopian pacifistic "serene" world. Guess what? It ain't happening in this lifetime for that world doesn't exist except as pure grandiose delusion and the cult can't handle hardcore criticism. Besides, the peace option is worn out from all the chances it was given. Serious? More like milquetoast. My complete response was: " "Scared of AA" is a joke, and if you've been around any paying any attention, you'd know better. And yes, serious. The founder of the group has been legally fighting AA coercion for years and has come closer to getting his case heard in front of the Supreme Court than anyone else. I'd call that serious, a hell of a lot more serious than petty squabbling with someone on the same side. Arguing with an obviously crazy man only gives the crazy man legitimacy. It makes everyone in the group look like loonies. If you want to fight, go find a stepper. A real one, not an imagined one." Don is doing anti-AA spots for public access television and you're accusing him of being a stepper. Your arguments with him made both of you look foolish and it reflects on 12SCW, and your own ARID site, I might add. You want to talk about accountability? What's your part in having some stepper coming to the group and laughing about your stupid argument with Don? I'm not afraid of AA, at that point I was embarrassed that I had allowed you two to hijack the group with your silly antics. ARID Site wrote: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 This is old but, for the sake of tying up loose ends, I need to get this out of the queue and have it on the record. On Sat, 8 Apr 2006 02:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Ray Smith writes: > "Scared of AA" is a joke, and if you've been around any paying any > attention, you'd know better. Oh, I've been around. When I witnessed a few Buchmanites at the St. Andrews Church meeting in New Kensington on more than a few occasions in 2004 bringing GUNS into the room, that's NOT a reason to be concerned? Especially when FELONS are sentenced, yes COERCED, to such meetings? It's not about fear here but outright concern for public safety. And, concerning the high recidivism rates of those exposed to Buchmanism, that concern is further justified. Now I'm not against guns for I am a gun owner. But wouldn't such a witnessed fact draw anyone's attention as to how reactionary A.A. had become? That known criminals are literally coerced with other fellow criminals within a criminal organization which is not what it claims to be? It certainly deserves no apologetics of any kind. As I stated, peace was given a chance for far too long. It's time to throw down 'cause it's on. The newbies need to know the truth of what A.A. is and what it is not. The very first thing is that it never has been an abstinence-based "quit-drinking" organization. The second thing is that self-recovery is commonplace not requiring groups, counselors, shrinks or other expensive bureaucratic nonsense. It would be unconscionable to deny anyone those facts. In fact such a denial denies a client the legal right to Informed Consent. > And yes, serious. The founder of the group has been legally > fighting AA coercion for years and has come closer to getting his > case heard in front of the Supreme Court than anyone else. I'd call > that serious, a hell of a lot more serious than petty squabbling > with someone on the same side. I'm proud of Mr. Perkins. I hope he kicks Buchmanite ass. Therefore you should make the statement that your group merely is a "candle holder" on his behalf and that the group itself only watches. Locally, I've won my battles simply due to the fact that the authorities were simply denied the fact that self-recovery is commonplace. So, as an unsatisfied consumer of all of the above "services", I'll fill that niche which "professionals" of all stripes, from religious to secular, from medicine to science, have forsaken. Be careful with that "same side" exception. Just because someone APPEARS to be on "the same side" doesn't mean to grant an exception to accountability. Whether it be a Buchmanite or otherwise I check all claims. No exceptions. If something even seems remotely suspicious I double-check what's being stated. There's a word for that: Impartiality. Are you sure Don is on the "same side"? Can you not see or are you just blinded by the faux-benevolence exuded from his manipulations? As I stated, I will never be fooled again. Not by him. Not by you. Not by anyone else. I'm on my own and I can live with that. > Arguing with an obviously crazy man only gives the crazy man > legitimacy. It makes everyone in the group look like loonies. If > you want to fight, go find a stepper. A real one, not an imagined > one. Okay. I see. I guess this is a mere delusion on my part to assume that Donald Lee is a Buchmanite apologist: "There is some truth and logic in the written words, throughout the 12 steps." - --Donald Lee, 12-Step-Free, September 5, 2005 @ 11:24:01, Message #102967 "The numbered sequence 1-through 12 has a ring of logic, the keading of a person from a God as we understood him, to a God as we understand him is nother point of logical thought." - --Donald Lee, E-mail, February 28, 2006 Wow...I can see how it's all just a psychosis. Silly me. I guess I need a shrink or a counselor to "help" me into seeing things the way you do for what I see and provide evidence for its existence isn't really there, right? Unbelievable! You're the antithesis of freethought. Oh well. Upward and onward. Be well and live well one LIFETIME at a time. dr.bomb, Ph.D. AVRT(tm) \_____________________________ Editor of The ARID Site * http://www.thearidsite.org * PGP keys at: ** Addiction counseling and groups are total frauds ** -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP Personal Privacy 6.5.8 iQA/AwUBRIrRRLw9MOKEeRC8EQIkmQCgg9X4wbDjEBEzEXjyMAo0hc2WHA0AoPk5 LIm/OUFR02wLL7o5qu8kvHqm =BcMp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --0-1745315823-1149952719=:32059 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Totally out of context. You accused me of being "afraid of AA". We were discussing your feud with Don:
 
(me)> I hadn't said anything before, hoping it would blow over if I
> asked you two to quit. I'm not sure telling you this is fair to
> Don, but I don't want the group getting sidelined. Some
> (suspected) AA troll already commented that he was laughing his
> ass off. I'm trying to keep 12CW the serious anti-AA group.

(you) Oh, NOW you tell the truth! Never in public but here in private? Are
you that shit scared of A.A.? Who cares what they think and if they
laugh or not! Hell, the only reason why I'm pseudoanonymous is that I
infiltrate Buchmanite groups and work within the pharmaceutical biz.
 
Anyhow, it's over. I quit for no one can reason with a cultist. He's
well on his way...to where I have no idea. I do have to admit that
you got me wondering which side is worse: The Buchmanites themselves
or those apologists who believe in "whatever works", including cult
indoctrination, and that "we" should all get along in such a false
utopian pacifistic "serene" world.

Guess what? It ain't happening in this lifetime for that world
doesn't exist except as pure grandiose delusion and the cult can't
handle hardcore criticism. Besides, the peace option is worn out from
all the chances it was given. Serious? More like milquetoast.
 
My complete response was:
 
" "Scared of AA" is a joke, and if you've been around any paying any attention, you'd know better.
 
And yes, serious. The founder of the group has been legally fighting AA coercion for years and has come closer to getting his case heard in front of the Supreme Court than anyone else. I'd call that serious, a hell of a lot more serious than petty squabbling with someone on the same side.
 
Arguing with an obviously crazy man only gives the crazy man legitimacy. It makes everyone in the group look like loonies. If you want to fight, go find a stepper. A real one, not an imagined one."
 
Don is doing anti-AA spots for public access television and you're accusing him of being a stepper. Your arguments with him made both of you look foolish and it reflects on 12SCW, and your own ARID site, I might add.
 
You want to talk about accountability? What's your part in having some stepper coming to the group and laughing about your stupid argument with Don? I'm not afraid of AA, at that point I was embarrassed that I had allowed you two to hijack the group with your silly antics.
 
 




ARID Site <thearidsite@juno.com> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

This is old but, for the sake of tying up loose ends, I need to get
this out of the queue and have it on the record.

On Sat, 8 Apr 2006 02:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Ray Smith writes:
> "Scared of AA" is a joke, and if you've been around any paying any
> attention, you'd know better.

Oh, I've been around. When I witnessed a few Buchmanites at the St.
Andrews Church meeting in New Kensington on more than a few occasions
in 2004 bringing GUNS into the room, that's NOT a reason to be
concerned? Especially when FELONS are sentenced, yes COERCED, to such
meetings?

It's not about fear here but outright concern for public safety. And,
concerning the high recidivism rates of those exposed to Buchmanism,
that concern is further justified.

Now I'm not against guns for I am a gun owner. But wouldn't such a
witnessed fact draw anyone's attention as to how reactionary A.A. had
become? That known criminals are literally coerced with other fellow
criminals within a criminal organization which is not what it claims
to be? It certainly deserves no apologetics of any kind.

As I stated, peace was given a chance for far too long. It's time to
throw down 'cause it's on. The newbies need to know the truth of what
A.A. is and what it is not. The very first thing is that it never has
been an abstinence-based "quit-drinking" organization. The second
thing is that self-recovery is commonplace not requiring groups,
counselors, shrinks or other expensive bureaucratic nonsense.

It would be unconscionable to deny anyone those facts. In fact such a
denial denies a client the legal right to Informed Consent.

> And yes, serious. The founder of the group has been legally
> fighting AA coercion for years and has come closer to getting his
> case heard in front of the Supreme Court than anyone else. I'd call
> that serious, a hell of a lot more serious than petty squabbling
> with someone on the same side.

I'm proud of Mr. Perkins. I hope he kicks Buchmanite ass. Therefore
you should make the statement that your group merely is a "candle
holder" on his behalf and that the group itself only watches.

Locally, I've won my battles simply due to the fact that the
authorities were simply denied the fact that self-recovery is
commonplace. So, as an unsatisfied consumer of all of the above
"services", I'll fill that niche which "professionals" of all
stripes, from religious to secular, from medicine to science, have
forsaken.

Be careful with that "same side" exception. Just because someone
APPEARS to be on "the same side" doesn't mean to grant an exception
to accountability. Whether it be a Buchmanite or otherwise I check
all claims. No exceptions. If something even seems remotely
suspicious I double-check what's being stated.

There's a word for that: Impartiality.

Are you sure Don is on the "same side"? Can you not see or are you
just blinded by the faux-benevolence exuded from his manipulations?

As I stated, I will never be fooled again. Not by him. Not by you.
Not by anyone else. I'm on my own and I can live with that.

> Arguing with an obviously crazy man only gives the crazy man
> legitimacy. It makes everyone in the group look like loonies. If
> you want to fight, go find a stepper. A real one, not an imagined
> one.

Okay. I see. I guess this is a mere delusion on my part to assume
that Donald Lee is a Buchmanite apologist:

"There is some truth and logic in the written words, throughout the
12 steps."
- --Donald Lee, 12-Step-Free, September 5, 2005 @ 11:24:01, Message
#102967

"The numbered sequence 1-through 12 has a ring of logic, the keading
of a person from a God as we understood him, to a God as we
understand him is nother point of logical thought."
- --Donald Lee, E-mail, February 28, 2006

Wow...I can see how it's all just a psychosis. Silly me. I guess I
need a shrink or a counselor to "help" me into seeing things the way
you do for what I see and provide evidence for its existence isn't
really there, right?

Unbelievable! You're the antithesis of freethought.

Oh well. Upward and onward. Be well and live well one LIFETIME at a
time.

dr.bomb, Ph.D. AVRT(tm) \_____________________________
Editor of The ARID Site * http://www.thearidsite.org *

PGP keys at:
** Addiction counseling and groups are total frauds **

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