From rationaldl@... Wed Sep 07 16:54:16 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: rationaldl@... X-Apparently-To: 12-step-free@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 4048 invoked from network); 7 Sep 2005 23:54:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m32.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Sep 2005 23:54:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web31112.mail.mud.yahoo.com) (68.142.201.74) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Sep 2005 23:54:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 54377 invoked by uid 60001); 7 Sep 2005 23:54:15 -0000 Message-ID: <20050907235415.54375.qmail@...> Received: from [162.84.178.99] by web31112.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 07 Sep 2005 16:54:15 PDT Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 16:54:15 -0700 (PDT) To: 12-step-free@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <20050907.191137.2420.15.thearidsite@...> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 68.142.201.74 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: donald lee Subject: Re: [12-step-free] Re: Re: Orange Papers back online! X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=212857078; y=gQUL_2tP8XrQLaASVqfJMnpnCmixHm86FlGCCV-zY-J0nBFFFg X-Yahoo-Profile: rationaldl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dr Bomb I'll get back to you later. It is all letters which are filled with venom amd hostility. Some of what you say is true, and some of it is running your mouth on and on. Oh yeah. it isn't important to me, for you to understand where I stand, on any part of the 12 step dispute or forum. The original question was related to the logic of the 12 steps not truth. No the attack is not beneath me. The analogy is ok. When something is broken it only needs fixing where it is broken. There is no way that you can end the whole machine which centers around any group or person who receives funds, and has a budget for treatment, and advertising. There will be more. You may if you wish take me off your list of mail to open and read. After I do this e-mail totally you will be off mine. There's a guy in NYC who reminds me of you. he is another alternative method of recovery freak to. I also am of the opinion that there now is religious freedom to contend with. So I will continue to put my opinion and influence where I feel it will do the most good. sincerely rationaldl ARID Site wrote: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 6 Sep 2005 21:13:36 -0000 12-step-free@yahoogroups.com writes: > Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 12:48:19 -0700 (PDT) > From: donald lee > Subject: Re: Re: Orange Papers back online! > > I have made up my mind about you. You sound educated but still an > asshole. That ad hominem attack was totally beneath you. Now you have completely lost me. You don't need to get snippy with me, hombre. The irony is that I always expect such behavior from a Buchmanite but never expected the same from you. > I support prisons, and still am aware of the dire need for > reform, and teatment for its inhabitants. You're changing the subject. We're talking about the fraud known as "addiction treatment". I just want to see the Buchmanism indoctrination/money laundering centers condemned. The people who want meetings can have them in their own homes on their own time and dime. Hell, that can have a whole big Billapalooza as long as no one is coerced into it or has to shell out ANY money for an expensive introduction to it. Unfortunately, "Treatment Works" is a hollow slogan spawned from the cretinous RGM/ATI and nothing more. > One day AA and nA can go > back to being just what they were meant to be. A program of > attraction. Not very likely. For that to happen it would cause the organization to shrivel rapidly. Without government coercion and lobbying the money train comes to a screeching halt. That means a lot of the leadership of the cult would be out of business and that bureaucratic beast would be pushed back to Akron to die the festering, lingering death it deserves. But you knew that. Hey, I'm on your side here, Don. And how would they go about gaining that attraction? Through promotion, silly! http://thearidsite.tripod.com/BLEXICON.HTM#confusingtheresults However, as things stand, the extremists are in charge and they will do ANYTHING to stay in power. Again, you already knew that. Get into the head of a Buchmanite and you'll see that they're no different than the Taliban or the misogynistic anti-choice Religious Right in regards to their militant extremism. And, being that I have seen some Buchmanites bringing guns to meetings, who knows what they'll do to keep The Program safe from harm, especially since their growth has slowed to a trickle as the oldtimers stay and become all the more reactionary and the newcomers see clearly what's going on and don't stay too long to become 1-5 years abstinent within A.A. - From A.A.'s own figures, the new minority are people with one to five years of continuous abstinence. The batshit insane oldtimers are the majority preying off of the newcomers. Since the newcomers don't stay very long that means only the oldtimers will stay and become a growing majority. Hence, the creation of the downward spiral and why the growth of A.A. attendance figures have slowed to a trickle. The reactionary nature of the cult itself ensures that A.A. will kill itself off through that polarizing downward spiral. And, as more people learn more about this vicious pro-addiction destructive religious drug cult, the more they'll stay away and offer alternatives in lieu of it, keeping more newcomers away and starving the cult off in the process. You want to promote the horror stories of what these Buchmanites do while A.A. promotes how "wonderful" it is as teaching drunks how to live life "sober, one day at a time". One is the truth while the other is a lie. I must ask which side you are on here: Of truth or deception? To expose A.A.'s lies means to threaten its existence. And yet, your ambivalence shows: You want it kept alive because you believe that some people were "helped" by it (in your own words, "three people"). Either you're not fully informed, masochistically get off on being abused or are a closet Buchmanite (same thing, actually). Don, I hope you can see my dilemma here for I honestly want to believe in your own self-professed benevolence. But you're actions, specifically your name-calling hostility, is confusing. > Is this a simple neough analogy for yo to understand. Sober is the > end result. The operative word being Clean and sober, even it is > alone, or with a voodoo prest. Be careful with that priest though. That bastard left me with the side effect of random instances of sleepwalking while singing the "Coconut" song by Nillson. I'm sure it's better than being buried alive though. But it's cold comfort knowing that you didn't recommend Buchmanism. For that I'm grateful. Hey, maybe we can send the people to Straight Inc., Craig Academy or some similar gulag of the therapeutic state. MAYBE they'll get "clean and sober"...and depressed and suicidal too. Again, "whatever works" just ain't necessarily so. Having people become dependent upon a pro-addiction evangelical cult religion where they believe that "slavery is freedom" and where dreams of authentic liberation are crushed under the notion of the oppressed becoming the oppressor is a piss-poor development. Whatever happened to the notion of liberation FROM addiction without instilling the belief in irrational cult superstition? Better bets would be the works of Peele, DeSena, Fox, Schaler, Trimpey et.al. which place a strong emphasis on personal responsibility and autonomy. In fact, teaching the skill of self-recovery should be a priority. For that to occur means the dissolution of the RGM/ATI. The irony is that you use the word "rational" in your nick. Right now I see nothing rationally consistent in your position. Also, you had yet to answer my question of what "truths" the 12-Steps contain. > If something is broke you fix it a little, or develope something > different. ...or throw it away entirely if it's completely junked. > Does this let you know where I stand? One moment you bitch about the "street theatre", "gangstalking" and other hazing that you have endured and want to go through with lawsuits for the purpose of, in your own words: "We should all get publicity for what has been done to us, and for the suffering the 12 step community has inflicted on us, at large." The next moment you attack me because I point out that the system has failed and want to realize the goal of its abolition so that no more people are ever harmed by it again. So, to answer your question, I'm not so sure where you stand on this. I don't know whether to sympathize with you or to...well, I'll try being diplomatic just a while longer. Your opening comments are proof positive that abuse can be passed on, and on, anon. Are you sure that your Yahoo! account isn't hacked? It's as though you're getting all "Sybil" up in here. Again, I'm on your side and you have my moral support if you should go through with such an endeavor for your idea of reform. All you need to learn is consistency and to drop the hostility and maybe you'd earn back my full respect as well. dr.bomb, Ph.D. AVRT(tm) \_____________________________ Editor of The ARID Site: http://thearidsite.tripod.com PGP keys at http://thearidsite.tripod.com/ARIDPGPK.TXT ** The Twelve Steps are a downward spiral staircase ** -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP Personal Privacy 6.5.8 iQA/AwUBQx9lrbw9MOKEeRC8EQLTHgCfQ2BxSLE8tpi+NqoclYS2xLPj5OIAnRrS ybWYHZ38TIxBVWxI4RHELM0O =V5nh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "12-step-free" on the web. 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